Kivans Against Cockfighting Loans Wiki
From My Wiki
This wiki relates to the issue of cockfighting loans on Kiva.
The goals of this wiki are to objectively present:
- Facts and information about the topic.
- Arguments from different points of view.
- Possible solutions or courses of action.
UPDATE 12.19.2010
This wiki has not yet been updated to reflect the changes concerning the loan to Edwin Suarez:
http://www.kivafriends.org/index.php/topic,3447.msg84762.html#msg84762
What is the history of the debate on cockfighting loans?
The earliest reference to the issue of cockfighting loans appears to be Matt Flannery's blog post which also links to an article in the SFWeekly. This was in late March 2008.
The issue resurfaced on Kiva friends in April 2009 on this thread (the cockfighting discussion begins on page 32, and the title of the thread is Inadequate business descriptions, and other questionable loans).
The issue was also discussed around the same time on this thread (called Cockfighting loan).
What is Kiva’s current policy?
In the last e-mail that Kiva wrote to David Friedman they indicated that they are reconsidering their policy.
Other people who have been involved in the issue have also mentioned that a new staff member (John@Kiva) was hired, and that he is acting as a liaison between Kiva and the Kiva community of lenders.
What animal rights organizations are currently involved and what work is currently occurring?
Judy (Judy's Kiva page) wrote on the Kiva KACL team that she has contacted a few different animal rights organizations and also public officials.
How many cockfighting loans have there been on Kiva?
This list does not consider the loan to Suarez which was refunded and is referred to above.
A list of seven cockfighting loans can be found here which was posted by Geoff.
And I think the three I've listed here are all contained in that list above.
There is also the one referred to in Matt Flannery's blog which I think is also listed above.
Many people might argue that a certain lower bound on the number of non-cockfighting loans could be established. For example, in some countries that Kiva operates it may not be practiced or there may not be any chickens or roosters kept.
It could be worth considering that the total number of loans that have gone through Kiva is as of 08/02/2010 at 208,000, so the identified loans make up only a small percentage (see KivaFriends).
What other kinds of loans have raised questions?
There exists social effects concerns about other kinds of loans. For example, those that involve charcoal.
The concerns center around deforestation, the illegal trade in charcoal, poaching of gorillas, and unsustainable practices (National Geographic Article).
Other cases include:
- Loans involving the raising of guinea pigs. The loan description may have only said "raising guinea pigs", and lenders thought they were being raised for pets. However, the guinea pigs were actually being raised for food (called cuy in South America).
- A loan for somebody who wanted to buy a BMW for a driving business.
- Concern about loans involving bushmeat.
What other loans have been stopped or halted? What cockfighting loans were stopped or halted and how were they stopped?
There was a loan that involved extracting the gall bladder from bears This loan was refunded as the activity is illegal in Vietnam.
In this post from the thread which involved that loan, and also from the last few paragraphs in the article in the SF Weekly one gets the impression that lenders may not know exactly what it is they are funding.
The cockfighting loans that were stopped or halted were done so by lenders who emailed the microfinance institute asking that it be refunded.
Apparently this occurred for the following loans:
When the loan to Verencia was refunded by the MFI a Kiva staff member apologized for posting it.
Another cockfighting loan however appears to have expired because not enough lenders supported it within the thirty day time frame required for a loan to be funded.
It is possible that this loan expired because of "basket hoarding". A person held on to the basket, and kept renewing it but didn't complete the loan. By using this technique nobody else could complete the loan.
This is what occurred in the bear gall loan. (see also this message).
Emprender, the microfinance institution involved was apparently originally unresponsive to e-mails from members of Kiva who opposed the loan (according to messages on the Team Obama list).
However, apparently they later responded saying that they had made a mistake.
On what forum has there been dicussion on this issue? What is a summary of the points made?
The forum where the main debate has occurred has been Kiva Friends.
Discussion on this topic occurred on the thread Inadequate business descriptions and other questionable loans (beginning on page 32).
Discussion is ongoing on the thread Cockfighting loan.
TODO: Summarize the discussion in more detail.
What are the viewpoints or various religions and religious leaders on the question of cockfighting loans through Kiva? (or alternatives to religious belief)
(I have moved this part to my own user page here. (Kacldkf 20:18, 30 August 2010 (MDT)))
Discussion and Arguments
What are arguments against allowing cockfighting loans?
The cockfighting laws may have different effects:
- Effect on lenders:
- Lenders may feel that Kiva is poorly organized or poorly run.
- Lenders may feel that Kiva lacks a moral compass. They may wonder whether Kiva sees itself as a microfinance machine--the goal being to churn out loans, grow, and increase operations, but without thinking more carefully about what is actually going on.
- Lenders may feel that Kiva does not have much control over the MFIs who are accepted into the program.
- Lenders may feel that Kiva is untrustworthy.
- Effect on Kiva:
- Lenders may simply choose to withdraw their funds from Kiva, and not initiate any further loans. This may hurt Kiva's operations which have the potential to help people who are in poverty.
- Effect on society:
- Many of the loans are funded by people who live in countries where cockfighting is illegal. One might conjecture that one effect of Kiva's actions might be to desensitize people to a particular activity. Although the government says that this activity is illegal Kiva does not prohibit such loans on its site -- hence this activity cannot be that bad. Another effect on society occurs in the country where the loan takes place. In the U.S. Animal Rights groups have stated that animal fighting is correlated with other crimes. One might conjecture that Kiva is abetting in an activity which is socially corrosive.
- Banned by many governments
- The activity is banned by many governments as stated in this question.
- Immoral
- The immorality or morality of a particular action is not always an easy, straightforward, or simple question. However, it could be stated here that probably many religions find the activity itself to be unethical. Another related question (but not the same question) is whether posting loans for that activity on a web site like Kiva are unethical. More discussion is in the religion part of this web site
What are arguments for allowing cockfighting loans?
- Effect on MFI's and entrepreneurs
- Those who support allowing the posting of cockfighting loans have expressed that it is important to be sensitive of another people's culture and traditions. In response to a particular policy some MFIs may decide to pull out of the Kiva program. Depending on the mechanics of the process some entrepreneurs may be offended, or angry about not getting a loan for a business.
- Effect on Kiva
- Kiva may find that its operations are slowed or hampered by concerns over the morality or immorality of particular loans. This means that less loans can get through to people who could benefit from the provided money, and become self-sufficient.
- Slippery slope
- Matt Flannery also mentioned in his blog post that some members of the Kiva community opposed loans for tobacco farms, taxi cabs, and butchers. Other members of the Kiva community have also posted on Kiva Friends that making a specific rule against blood sports would then open the floodgates for people to ask for rules against non-organic farming, the raising of livestock, loans for somebody who is a polygamist, etc.
MFIs
Have there been cases where Kiva severed relations with an MFI?
Afrique Emergence et Investissements (AE&I) worked with Kiva but was shut down because Kiva had concerns about fraud.
However, (AE&I) published a rebuttal and furthermore they have been picked up by MYC4.
Other MFI's have been paused. For the MFIs in Eastern Europe this seemed to occur because of economic conditions in the region (e.g. Microinvest, A Partner of Woman for Woman International ).
However, for LAPO this occurred because of questions about the social mission of the organization and high interest rates. More discussion about LAPO is in this New York Times Article.
Some people are saying that microfinance institutions are charging exorbitant interest rates for the purpose of making profit.
What MFIs have agreed not to fund any cockfighting loans?
According to a message to the KACL Team from Judy HSPFI has agreed not to fund any businesses involving gambling, businesses which harm the environment, or those which can cause damage to humans or nature. EDESA also stated that they do not lend to cockfighting businesses.
What MFIs have been involved in cockfighting loans?
Some of the MFI's involved included:
- Loan to William -- FINCA Peru
- Loan to Verencia -- CEVI (Community Economic Ventures Incorporated)
- Loan to Raul -- Emprender
The loan through FINCA Peru was refunded after lenders e-mailed the microfinance institute, and this also happened with the loan through CEVI.
Emprender, the microfinance institution involved in the loan to Raul was apparently originally unresponsive to e-mails from members of Kiva who opposed the loan (according to messages on the Team Obama list around the middle of April 2010 from Geoff (who is also known as Yardbird and bikeme)).
However, apparently they later responded saying that they had made a mistake.
As of 08/02/2010 FINCA Peru has about 12,000 entrepreneurs while CEVI and Emprender both have about 3,400.
Kiva
What are the logistics and mechanics of microfinance and how do they relate to this issue?
(others may be better able to handle this question Kacldkf 05:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC) (David))
What are some possible plans or proposed solutions?
Poll
One plan might be (after a period of debate, through different forums, conference calls, etc.) to submit the issue to the entire Kiva public.
The poll does not necessarily need to be immediately released and the question could be part of a larger poll which would ask other questions as well.
Kiva released the last poll to lenders at the beginning of the year, so it might be reasonable to seek that this topic be part of a poll to be released at the beginning of 2011.
In the meantime people who are interested in working on this topic, or related topics can try to speak their point of view.
Other questions are:
- How should the poll be structured to address this issue (what links should be provided, what is a reasonable number of question(s) to ask on this topic, etc.)
- After the results have been released what should the action or inaction be, and should there be a discussion or decision made before the poll is released about what the results would mean. (e.g. some discussion about what percentage of lenders vote "no", or "strongly disagree", or "disagree" etc. versus how many vote "yes", or "agree", or "strongly agree" -- the simplest way might be to just have a simple "yes"/"no" vote, and then discuss beforehand about what a particular percentage might imply)
- Should MFI's or entrepreneurs in some capacity or another be allowed to discuss their point of view during the debate phase?
Position Papers
Another possible plan is for different members of the Kiva community to write position papers that would then be posted on a web site.
There have been a few concerns about Kiva's operation:
- Transparency -- David Roodman blogged about issues with transparency. He suggested that Kiva is not being forthright with how the system works, and lenders do not have a full understanding of the process.
- Excessive interest -- A recent New York Times article discussed whether MFI's that work with Kiva charge excessive interest. It also raised the question whether some MFI's that partner with Kiva do not have a social mission but are focused on producing maximum profit without much concern for social effects.
- Use of funds -- This blog post raised the question of whether provided funds are being used for what the loan descriptions says they will be used for.
- Guidelines for approving postings -- In a email to David Friedman Kiva asked for feedback on establishing guidelines about what postings should be considered as acceptable.
It could be commented that Kiva does not have a specific list of kinds of loans that would be prohibited (e.g. prostitution, drugs, weapons, etc.).
A number of separate components must come together for a loan to take place:
1. The MFI must be accepted into the program.
2. The entrepreneur must decide that such a business is viable, and consistent with their ethics or morals.
3. The MFI must approve the loan.
4. At this point Kiva can refund a loan if necessary (as in the case of the bear gall loan ). Kiva's decision is based on UN guidelines (Kiva does not specify which UN guidelines it consults) and also whether the business is legal in the country where it takes place (Kiva's policy).
5. Lenders must decide to fund the loan.
Each of these steps is a check which could prevent a morally objectionable loan from being funded.
This post implies that such a list exists but if it did apparently it no longer does.
How has Kiva changed it policies in response to concerns about transparency?
In response to David Roodman's blogging Kiva changed its website toward the goal of greater transparency.
Cockfighting
What is cockfighting and how is it conducted in different countries?
In what countries is cockfighting banned?
In addition to being banned in the U.S., according to Wikipedia, cockfighting is also banned in Spain, England, Wales, Brazil, and throughout most of Europe.
POSSIBLE TODO: Make a list of countries where cockfighting is banned with reliable sources from the web for each country.
How is cockfighting seen in countries where it is legal and how is it conducted?
People who have supported allowing cockfighting loans have stated that cockfighting is seen in certain countries (e.g. the Philippines) as a national pastime. People who support keeping the loans do not see the activity as necessarily socially corrosive.
Related to this issue is the question of what loan money is actually being used for. Descriptions of loans indicate that the money is used for a legitimate business, but it seems likely that at least some provided funds are used for crime or corruption -- especially in countries where corruption or crime may be prevalent. ( above question )
How would entrepreneurs or MFIs feel about being unable to post loans or borrow money for certain kinds of loans?
This is somewhat of an unknown. Some MFIs simply responded to lenders request to halt the loans. Other MFIs appear to have taken no action.
This may be a key question. Do the MFIs care if they lose their Kiva funds for certain kinds of loans? Are entrepreneurs still able to find funds for their cockfighting operation without Kiva?
It may be unclear what the result would be if Kiva made a policy to prevent the loans. One poster indicated that the person may still get the loan from the MFI but just without any Kiva funding (link to message).
What are the current U.S. federal laws against cockfighting, and what are the state laws?
Under state law cockfighting is banned in all fifty states (Louisiana being the last state to enact laws against it which became enforceable in 2008).
According to Matt Flannery's blog post on the topic federal law prohibits the following:
- Advertising or promoting an animal fighting venture in interstate or foreign commerce.
- Sponsoring or exhibiting an animal in a fighting venture in interstate or foreign commerce.
- Buying, selling or transporting an animal for fighting in interstate or foreign commerce.
- Buying, selling or transporting a weapon designed to be used by an animal in interstate or foreign commerce. This part of The Act specifically refers to any sharp instrument attached to the leg of a bird.
Click here for more information on the federal law.
Related articles from animal protection groups
Posts linking to articles related to animal protection groups publications on cockfighting. ([1, 2 )
- In this article from Animal Protection of New Mexico Elisabeth Jennings speaks out against cockfighting. This article dates from before the ban which went into effect in New Mexico.
- This article is from In Defense of Animals, and it discusses cockfighting, and also reports the results of a survey conducted in Arizona.
Larger Issues
What are some larger political or philosophical issues raised by this debate?
Association
It seems that a larger issue raised by the debate is the following question:
How much should one party associate, participate, condone, or finance another party when there are ethical questions about the other party's behavior?
For example, the United States has diplomatic and trade relations with many nations which may have certain perspectives or attitudes towards:
- The role of women in society.
- How much religion should play in role in making public laws or in daily life.
- The way ethnic minorities or the disadvantaged are treated.
- The way the press, courts, or public agencies are permitted to be independent or influenced and controlled by the central government.
the U.S. government is often faced with the question of how to react when human rights concerns, or other concerns arise.
Another example might be the decisions that faced consumers. For example, the movie Food Inc. encourages consumers to change their eating habits, and specifically what products are purchased. The goal being to create social progress in agriculture, public health, and energy.
Another example has to do with decisions that face investors. There now exist socially responsible investment funds which seek to avoid purchasing securities that might involve business activities of a socially questionable or irresponsible nature.
Web sites were set up seeking to get investors to divest from companies that were helping to fund the genocide in Darfur. (the website SudanDivestment.org (which existed in 2005) has been taken down for some reason)
The Internet as a Force for Globalization
(this section might discuss other cases where people from all different parts of the world find themselves interacting with each other in the relatively new world of cyberspace Kacldkf 03:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC))
(China and Google might be one paragraph, Iran and Twitter could be another topic, etc.)
What is a reasonable balance between excessive rules, guidelines, and specifications versus insufficient structure?
(this is brought up to a certain extent in this question )
Vyew Teleconferencing
A Vyew book has been set up to accompany this wiki. Vyew is a teleconferencing solution.
Click here to enter the meeting room
I think that it is necessary to register with Vyew in order to try it out but this is free -- Kacldkf 01:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Who created this wiki?
If you write to my talk page that should cause an e-mail to get sent to me -- Kacldkf 01:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Photo Credit
The photo in the upper left hand corner is from Dreamstime, and was taken by Alicina Mil-homens (the photo is only visible using some skins).
